Episode 019: Melanie Seibert: Applying Insights from Personality Inventories

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Melanie Seibert headshot

Episode 019: Melanie Seibert: Applying Insights from Personality Inventories

Category:introversion,Introverted Leadership,introverts,Leadership,personality,Podcast

Episode 019 Show Notes: Melanie Seibert

Introduction

Melanie Seibert headshot

Melanie Seibert and Ben Woelk chat about being surprised at the insights from StrengthsFinder and other inventories, and applying these insights in the workplace.

Key concepts

  • StrengthsFinder and other inventories
  • You don’t always get what you want to
  • The lingering impact of limiting statements

Quotable

You don’t have to be a certain personality type to be a leader. You can be an introvert. You can be creative. You can be analytical, whatever. @melanie_seibert

I knew in my mind the qualities that I wanted to have and it was an adjustment to accept the strengths that I actually do have and see how I can use those, instead of trying to be someone I’m not. @melanie_seibert

Statements made about you early in your life (such as you won’t be creative) can have a big impact on what you believe about yourself. Depending on how you take them, can probably limit yourself quite a bit. @benwoelk

How important it is to have a team where people are complementary, so that those strengths are there, but also where there are weaknesses those are bolstered and really shored up by having the right people on the team. @benwoelk

As an INFJ, I’m just really fascinated with people’s stories, and how people work on the inside. @melanie_seibert

Personality inventories give us permission to do things that we thought we weren’t suited for, and I feel like that sense of having permission is helpful to some people. I just want to encourage people to not doubt that they can be leaders. @melanie_seibert

Resources or Products Mentioned in this Episode

  • Prose Kiln
  • StrengthsFinder
  • Keirsey Temperament Sorter
  • DISC

Links

Transcript

Ben: So welcome back Melanie. I’m looking forward to more conversation. It’s been fascinating so far.

Ben:  What do you think your biggest strengths are? And we started to talk a little bit about the StrengthsFinder, and I have actually not taken that one yet. I’ve done the Enneagram (which I can’t remember any of the detail on) and DISC, which I’m really not super fond of. And of course the Myers-Briggs/Keirsey type things. I have not yet done the StrengthsFinder thing. Tell me a little bit about that test. I guess what would be really interesting, I think, would be if you have any idea what you felt like your strengths were before you took the test, and whether you learned something from that test that surprised you.

Melanie: Yeah. So the StrengthsFinder is really interesting because the way–I learned about it when I went to work at Rackspace, and they as an organization have every person who’s hired take the StrengthsFinder before you start, and then when you start you get your results. And there are sort of orientation meetings to talk about what it means and how to work with different people. So they told us that when the researchers who created StrengthsFinder ultimately first set out, they wanted to find, was what are the traits of leaders. What are all the common personality traits that leaders have, and they expected to find when they interviewed executives and managers and those type of people–they expected to find common traits across everyone. And what they actually found was these 34 different strengths that were in different combinations for every leader. So it was surprising to them.

Melanie: But, the takeaway from that is that you don’t have to be a certain personality type to be a leader. You can be an introvert. You can be creative. You can be analytical, whatever. And so it’s funny that you say what was I expecting, because I was in this mode where I was like–I’m going to be a content strategist now. I’m going from being a writer, which is sort of a more creative role, to being strategic and analytical and thinking more big picture. And so I was really hoping to get a–there’s a strength called strategic. There’s a strength called communication. And there’s–there are a few others that look–there’s one called self assurance that I really wanted, but I just knew that wasn’t gonna happen. So, when I finally got my results, communication, strategic, self-assurance were way down towards the bottom, and at the top I had connectedness, input, positivity, relater. I can’t remember all of them right offhand, but I had adaptability, and I was just like, “Oh man!” All these–they sounded very sort of unappealing and wishy-washy to me at the time. But over time, I’ve really learned to value and I’ll see myself doing things and if I do a certain thing, well I’m like, “That’s because I have connectedness.” Like I’m always connecting people with resources, or I just find that super satisfying to–I don’t know–help people learn about something, and I’ll tell them, “Oh, there’s this great book that I read or whatever.”

You don't have to be a certain personality type to be a leader. You can be an introvert. You can be creative. You can be analytical, whatever. @melanie_seibert Click To Tweet

Melanie: And there’s value to that. So, I think positivity is probably the only strength that I have that is actually–at the time they counted it as a leadership type of strength. It lets you influence people and it lets you influence people’s behavior. There are others that I definitely don’t have as much of. One is command, which is where you’re just like totally comfortable being the boss, and one is woo, which they say it stands for winning others over, which means you’re kind of like the salesman. You’re like everyone’s best friend. You meet a person and you’re like their best friend within two minutes, and you’re all buddy buddy with them, and then when you meet someone else you’re sort of their best friend. So it’s like, I don’t know, it’s very charming. Sounds like an extrovert thing. I don’t know, I can talk about it all day.

Ben: It sounds like a courtship-type thing. When you said the wooing part, I mean that’s the context, but it sounds appropriate for what you’re talking about as well. It’s funny to me that when you took the inventory that you were hoping to have strengths in certain areas.

Melanie: Yeah, I mean I don’t think I knew the words for them, or what the outputs would be, but I knew in my mind the qualities that I wanted to have, like how I wanted to see myself, and it was an adjustment to accepting the strengths that I actually do have and seeing how I can actually use those, instead of trying to be someone I’m not. Basically, like I’m never going to be–the boss had self assurance and I was so jealous because I want to be able to just walk into a meeting and lead the meeting and feel totally comfortable doing that, and just assume that people are going to accept my ideas, ’cause I have the best ideas, and that type of thing. I’m just never going to be comfortable doing that. I’m always going to be a little bit more reserved, a little bit more like tentative. Like I think this is the best course of action, but I’m always open to feedback, or if other people have other ideas, let’s hear ’em. That type of thing. So it was definitely a process.

I knew in my mind the qualities that I wanted to have and it was an adjustment to accept the strengths that I actually do have and see how I can use those, instead of trying to be someone I'm not. @melanie_seibert Click To Tweet

Ben: Yeah. It sounds like it was a very–very much a self discovery thing. With some of it too, and some of it just does seem to be putting the words around what those strengths were. It’s funny because when I took the Keirsey.com Temperament Inventory, I was really surprised at some of the results of it, and I talked to my wife about it and then said, “Well, this is funny. Did you know that it says I’m really, really willfully independent?” And so that, “Yes!” [Melanie laughing] So it’s like the things that were not a surprise to people who knew me, but they were certainly a surprise to me. And what I found most helpful with the inventory I took, and I think this is true for many of them, is that it does help you identify your strengths.

Ben: And for me it was even to the point of, “Oh, Keirsey says I’m an INTJ.” Keirsey says, “Oh, they can be good leaders. I must be able to be a good leader.” And that was actually my reaction to it, because I grew up with that Western ideal of what leaders must be like, and knowing I was not this charismatic individual who was going to stand in front of everyone, or be commanding or anything else. It was just really wild to me to discover that, I could actually be a good leader. I learned things, like I’m innovative–creative and that should be an obvious thing, but I still go back to conversations in elementary school that I remember my parents having with my teachers, where they basically said, “Well, he’ll be able to learn anything at all, but he’s–he’s not going to be creative.” And that kind of thing–as surface as it seems like it should be–that really stuck with me. And I was really surprised that “Oh my goodness, I can be creative. I can be innovative.” And I embrace that now. But I did–It was like I didn’t even know it was a possibility. So it’s kind of funny, because for me it’s kind of how these, not really random comments, but how these statements early on in your life can have a big impact on what you believe about yourself. And probably, depending on how you take them can probably limit yourself quite a bit.

Statements made about you early in your life (such as you won't be creative) can have a big impact on what you believe about yourself. Depending on how you take them, can probably limit yourself quite a bit. @benwoelk @introvert_leadr Click To Tweet

Melanie: Yeah. Isn’t that funny? It’s almost like it’s liberating because someone’s giving you permission, you know, saying, “Yes, it’s okay. You can be creative.” You know, it’s–it’s really amazing how we internalize those impressions. I think I had a similar impression of myself. I don’t remember anyone ever telling me you can’t be creative, but I definitely–I–oh man, this is embarrassing! I walked into a job interview for a copywriting job when I was in my early twenties and the hiring manager said, “Well, are you creative?” And I said, “No,” [laughing] because I really don’t think of myself as creative. But later I was just like, well, first of all that was really dumb thing to say in a job interview. You don’t ever say that. But secondly, it’s not true because I’ve seen where I can be creative in ways that maybe I didn’t realize. So yeah, I definitely had a similar experience

Ben: It’s funny, and I imagine talking to a lot of people, we’d find out that there were little things that people said, and they took them to heart, or that these things have had an impact on them. So I think it’s great. I think all of these inventories are really useful. Some of them I personally like more than others, but in general I think they’re useful because I think that whole self discovery piece is really important. It’s so–I mean for me–I mean I haven’t, like I said, I have not done StrengthFinder yet, but it’s going to come back with strategic. Everything else that I’ve looked at talks about being strategic, and that helps me in terms of understanding what I’m good at and what I’m not good at. I’m in the process of planning a party (and this will release after this party occurs), but it’s a surprise party, and their are logistics, and I am going crazy because I don’t like dealing with the logistics. That level of detail as opposed to the overall strategy thing, I’m just finding to be a really, really big challenge. So it also, I think, points to how important it is to have a team where people are complementary, so that those strengths are there, but also where there are weaknesses (and we all have them), where those are bolstered and really shored up by having the right people on the team.

How important it is to have a team where people are complementary, so that those strengths are there, but also where there are weaknesses those are bolstered and really shored up by having the right people on the team. @benwoelk Click To Tweet

Melanie: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that was one reason why Rackspace really invested in that methodology, and also understanding your own strengths and understanding that someone else is not going to see the problem the same way you are, and there is a place for both people on the team. We really need each other. And in fact, their whole philosophy was, “If you’re not good at something, then let somebody who is naturally good at it do it, and you develop your strengths, not your weaknesses,” which is kind of a whole other kind of interesting take. But their point was you’re going to go farther building on your strengths, then you will be than you will trying to mitigate your weaknesses. So, work together. And so, it’s really interesting.

If you're not good at something, then let somebody who is naturally good at it do it, and you develop your strengths, not your weaknesses. @melanie_seibert Click To Tweet

Ben: I think that makes sense. I can see the downside of that. I mean, I think if it’s a case where your weaknesses are, I’m going to say, non-strengths, your weaknesses are impeding your ability to do something, then you obviously need to work on them. But in theory it makes perfect sense, because if you want to basically get the best part of each person and their best viewpoints involved, it seems like the product would naturally be stronger because you are leveraging everyone’s strengths. I can see the wisdom in that. It’s an interesting discussion.

Ben: You had mentioned that in a previous job that the leadership thing didn’t really pan out, because they were looking for a specific type of leader, more of a command-and-control type situation. And I know when–I don’t like being on either side of that. I cannot stand being micromanaged, and I probably, if anything, don’t necessarily provide as much management input with people who are doing things for me as I need to, because I’m very much, “Well I’m happy with whatever way you do it and I expect you to use your strengths, whatever you’re doing.” But I can see how that’s been a bit of a bit of a challenge at times as well.

Ben: We started to talk a little bit about what it’s like being an introvert in the workplace, and maybe not in a–well you are in a senior content strategist role. So it is a leader role in a way, or very much a leader role. How about in general in life, do you find that being an introvert impacts how you act in other situations or social situations?

Melanie: Yeah. So it’s really interesting that you sent me the link to the Keirsey Personality Inventory. I’m not sure if I’m calling it the right thing, but my profile there is the Counselor. So I’m the person who, it doesn’t matter if it’s at work or at church or at home, people are always coming to me with their problems. I had someone–a relative–texting me last night with what was a parenting question, and I think, I’m not sure why that is, but it has something to do with I’m really comfortable listening to people, and I’m very nosy, so I want to know everyone’s business, and I want to know all about their problems, and I really want to know what they’re really thinking, like what is really going on with this person under the surface. And for some reason, I’m just fascinated. So it’s not an altruistic thing necessarily. It’s kind of a selfish thing. I’m just really fascinated with people’s stories, and how people work on the inside. So yeah, that definitely does come out in my sort of daily life. Like, people will open up and tell me things, and it turns out that if you listen to people, you’ll be surprised at the things that they will tell you. I’m always sort of asking for information and expecting people to say, “Well, no, I don’t want to talk about that.” Or, “That’s too personal,” and it is really unusual for a person to say that. People will tell you a lot. I think a lot of people just really want to be listened to. I do find that.

As an INFJ, I'm just really fascinated with people's stories, and how people work on the inside. @melanie_seibert Click To Tweet

Ben: Especially if they think they can trust you. And that you will give them good input, but–and obviously not take the information and use it for whatever purposes. It’s funny because I look at our initial guest list on the podcast, and you are the fourth or fifth INFJ that I’ve had on the podcast, and in some ways it makes sense, but if you look at the Keirsey Temperament Sorter or the Myers Briggs, and the statistics around it, INFJ is the most rare temperament type.

Melanie: Really!

Ben: So I just find it really intriguing that I have so many friends who are INFJs.

Melanie: I’m curious to know which temperament types are the most common, so I’m going to have to do some Googling after this.

Ben: I don’t have the numbers handy, but one of the big differences that Keirsey talks about is that you have your Ns who are the intuitives and you have your Ss who are more concrete. There are far more concrete thinkers in our world than there are people who are intuitive, like INTJ or INFJ or anything like that. And I think from what I’ve been able to tell, the Ss are more much more practically focused, which is probably a good thing, because I know I can be very abstract and thinking about possibilities and things like that. So I think the Ss are pretty much holding us together. While some of us are very speculative and want to come up and try all these new ideas and things. And the INFJ as a guest doesn’t totally surprise me, because we’re all very interested in this whole temperament thing now and how it impacts things. And I think we tend to be naturally more introspective, not even just as introverts, but especially with being intuitive instead.

Melanie: That makes a lot of sense. And also if you’re talking to people in sort of technology-related fields, I feel like that N orientation where you’re thinking about possibilities and trying to innovate, that is definitely encouraged more in tech and in the type of world where we work, so that also might have something to do with it. That is really interesting.

Ben: I’d like to talk a little bit about recommendations you might have for introverts who want to become influencers or leaders. What recommendations would you have?

Melanie: Yeah, I guess my main recommendation is to, as we discussed earlier, we talked about how the personality inventories gave us permission to do things that we sort of thought we weren’t suited for, and I feel like that sense of having permission is helpful to some people, and so I just want to encourage people to not doubt that they can be leaders. I’m reading a book right now. It’s about systems thinking, and it’s very much about learning and leading, and the author is very against this idea that only executives are leaders or only managers are leaders. And I definitely had thought of it that way. You know, I think of the organization, you have your org chart and there are the people at the top of the org chart and those are the leaders.

Personality inventories give us permission to do things that we thought we weren't suited for, and I feel like that sense of having permission is helpful to some people. I just want to encourage people to not doubt that they can be… Click To Tweet

Melanie: But in reality a lot of the change in organizations comes from the individual contributors or the people who have a lot of credibility amongst their coworkers, and they become leaders that way, even if they don’t have formal or structural power to command people to do things a different way, it’s much more effective. Change is much more effective when it comes from sort of that level, that individual level. And so in that sense we’re all leaders, if we’re engaged and we’re motivated at work, we can be leaders at work. And there are a lot of different ways to be a leader. So if you’re working in a setting where your leadership style really isn’t valued, that doesn’t mean that you’re not a leader or that you can’t be a leader. You might just not be in the right place, that you might not be in a place that really values the contributions that you have to give. Because that’s where I found myself, and I had to find a place where I could contribute something that the organization would value. So I guess that’s my main recommendation. It’s not very sort of technical, but I feel like it is important to some people.

A lot of the change in organizations comes from the individual contributors who have credibility amongst their coworkers. They become leaders that way, even if they don't have formal or structural power. @melanie_seibert Click To Tweet

If you're working in a setting where your leadership style really isn't valued, that doesn't mean that you're not a leader or that you can't be a leader. You might just not be in the right place. @melanie_seibert Click To Tweet

Ben: I appreciate your time and thanks for a great interview!

Melanie: Thanks, Ben! It’s been great chatting with you.


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Tree Roots

Security Awareness and the Wind in the Trees

Category:EDUCAUSE,Higher Education,Information Security,Internet Safety,Security Awareness

Tree Roots

Image by cocoparisienne from Pixabay

Security Awareness and the Wind in the Trees

Winds and Stress Wood

In the 1990s, Space Biosphere Ventures constructed Biosphere 2. The biosphere was occupied by a crew of researchers for a two-year period, investigating whether they could be sustained only by food grown within the dome. The researchers grew many types of plants in their quest to develop a self-sustaining environment. One of the surprising results from their efforts was that as many of the trees grew they suffered from a lack of “stress wood.” A tree grows stress wood to strengthen its roots and structure in response to winds. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosphere_2)

Strong Roots

Many writers have drawn analogies between the importance of trees having strong roots (roots which are a form of stress wood), and the need for people to have strong roots to overcome adversity. I thought it would be interesting to look at this stress wood phenomena in the context of security awareness. I’m a security awareness practitioner in higher education. I take the complexities of good cybersecurity practices and recast them for my audience, doing the work of a technical communicator by explaining complex concepts and making them relevant and actionable to my audience.

Application

In many ways, effective security awareness has the same effect on the development of strong roots in people that winds have on trees. Without steady winds, trees don’t develop roots and will topple from strong gusts. Without a steady light wind of security awareness education, our communities won’t withstand the gusts of cyberattacks. Security awareness programs must communicate steadily to their communities what members need to know–not only how to recognize and respond to specific cyberthreats, but good daily security practices.

Effective security awareness has the same effect on the development of strong roots in people that winds have on trees. Without steady winds, trees don't develop roots and will topple from strong gusts. Without a steady light wind of… Click To Tweet

To help our community members develop strong roots we need a programmatic approach to security awareness. It’s not enough to just communicate about specific cyberattacks (gusts) as they occur. We must embed good security practices into our culture. Good security practice must become habitual. Our end users must develop strong roots to face the adversity of cyberattacks.

To help our end users develop strong roots we need a programmatic approach to security awareness. It’s not enough to just communicate about specific cyberattacks (gusts) as they occur. Click To Tweet

We must strive to embed good security practices into our culture. Good security practice must become habitual. Our people must develop strong roots to face the adversity of cyberattacks. Click To Tweet

For several years, I’ve led a preconference workshop to my peers on developing a security awareness plan at the EDUCAUSE Security Professionals Conference, sometimes by myself, other times with a skilled co-presenter. This year, Tara Schaufler, Information Security Awareness and Training Program Manager at Princeton University, and I will be presenting Know Which Way the Wind Blows: Security Awareness that Soars. We’ll help attendees build a strategic plan and determine how to implement that plan so that their communities have that steady wind of security awareness communications.

Wind in the Trees

I think the analogy of wind in the trees works for security awareness education. Growing roots is a good way to articulate the results and culture change we should expect from a good security awareness program. Decorating the tree through a specific security awareness campaign may be eye-catching. It’s great to leverage the damage from gusts of cyberattacks to teach key concepts. However, it’s the steady breeze that will make the biggest difference for our communities.

It's great to leverage the gusts of cyberattacks to teach key concepts. However, it's the steady breeze that will make the biggest difference for our communities. Click To Tweet


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Melanie Seibert headshot

Episode 018: Melanie Seibert–Collaboration as an Introvert

Category:introversion,Introverted Leadership,Podcast,techcomm

Episode 018 Show Notes: Melanie Seibert

Introduction

Melanie Seibert headshot

Melanie Seibert and Ben Woelk chat about what it means to be a content strategist and collaboration as an introvert.

Key concepts

  • Content strategy
  • Collaborative workspaces
  • Creativity exercises

Quotable

So for an introvert, it’s really interesting to be expected to be in office during core business hours every day and working and collaborating closely with people. So it’s interesting to have the opportunity to do that and to find a balance between wanting to sort of get away and do my thinking alone, and then having collaboration time with other people.

Being an introvert to me and my personality means that I sort of shy–I tend to shy away from conflict. I don’t feel super comfortable in a situation where I’m expected to sort of take the lead and command people to do things. That makes me pretty uncomfortable. So my style is more–I like to collaborate with people. I like to support the people on the team and we all together sort of create a great experience for the client.

I’ve learned over time that collaboration, while it’s not sort of my natural mode, is definitely more than worth the sort of effort that it takes me to kind of get out of my comfort zone, because the outputs–the products that we make–are so much better when I’m collaborating with other people.

When you get in a room with more than one person and you’re all focused on the same thing, you can get perspectives that you wouldn’t have access to otherwise.

I’ve been in settings before where being an introvert was difficult because the organization didn’t understand or value introverts as leaders as much. They definitely had a view of leadership as a command-and-control type of leadership. And so in that type of environment, an introvert could be seen as ineffective.

It’s kind of fascinating how you need the time and the quiet and the space, or the books even, to recharge. But you’re still able to go out and be very very social. So you’ve definitely built on that skill.

Resources or Products Mentioned in this Episode

Links

Transcript

Ben: Joining us today is Melanie Seibert. Melanie is a senior content strategist at Willow Tree, Inc.. She’s taught content strategy at General Assembly and helped create digital experiences for Razorfish, RackSpace, and C-Panel. Melanie opines about content strategy on her blog, Prose Kiln at ProseKiln.com. I met Melanie last spring at the STC Summit Conference in Orlando, Florida. You can contact Melanie on Twitter at @Melanie_Seibert, I encourage our listeners to visit HopefortheIntrovert.com, where you’ll find complete show notes including a transcript of today’s conversation.

Ben: Hi Melanie. I’m really excited you’re joining us today. I’m looking forward to chatting with you.

Melanie: Hey Ben. Yeah, it’s really great to be chatting with you again.

Ben: Great! So I want to find out a little bit more about Content Strategy, because I’m not sure how much our listeners will know about this, and honestly, I didn’t know much about it myself until a couple of years ago when I ended up on that Content Strategists list and figured I’d better look this up, and then discovered, “Oh yes, I do do content strategy.” I just wasn’t aware of it. [Melanie laughing] So what can you tell us about your job? What does it mean to be a content strategist? And what is your workplace like?

Melanie: Yeah, that’s a great question. So, I got into content strategy. I was a technical writer at a software company and I found that I was documenting UIs [user interfaces] where I had feedback for the Ui itself. So, I would say something like, “Oh, I think that we maybe don’t need to document this, if we change the interface a certain way.” And started really looking into and getting interested in Usability and User Experience from that, and learned that there’s this thing called content strategy. And at the time, Christina Halvorson had just published the first edition of the book Content Strategy for the Web, which was the first book–really popular book about content strategy that I knew about and that I read. And as soon as I learned about it, I was kind of hooked. I had been working as a writer for a really long time and started asking a lot of questions about why are we writing certain things or how should we write them. And the idea of content strategy is really to set up writers and content creators for success. So doing the planning, and the research, and the scheduling, and answering the questions of why, so that when it comes time to create content, writers have that information, and are supported in their role.

Melanie: And that was just super appealing to me, so I’ve been a content strategist ever since then. Today, I work at Willow Tree, which is an agency that makes mobile apps, websites, things like chatbots. But we got our start–the agency got its start–as an app agency. So it’s really a different type of environment for me. I’ve been here for two years. I had never really worked with mobile apps before I came to Willow Tree, but I’ve learned a ton about content strategy and how content works in mobile apps. So it’s been super fun. The company is really amazing, too. The culture’s great. The people are super competent and driven and I learn a ton from them. One thing that’s really interesting about my workplace, is that the company has a really strong point of view on co-location. So for an introvert, it’s really interesting to be expected to be in office during core business hours every day and working and collaborating closely with people. So it’s interesting to have the opportunity to do that and to find a balance between wanting to sort of get away and do my thinking alone, and then having collaboration time with other people.

It's interesting to collaborate with people and find a balance between wanting to get away and do my thinking alone, and then having collaboration time with other people. Melanie Seibert Click To Tweet

Ben: So it sounds like an interesting challenge for you being in that kind of workplace in general as a content strategist and maybe work in life in general. Melanie, you said you’re an introvert in the workplace, which obviously was one of the main reasons you’re a guest on the program today. How do you find that being an introvert affects how you approach your work and maybe how does that translate to how you approach life in general? And if so, how?

Melanie: Yeah, so it definitely does. Being an introvert to me and my personality means that I sort of shy–I tend to shy away from conflict. I don’t feel super comfortable in a situation where I’m expected to sort of take the lead and command people to do things. That makes me pretty uncomfortable. So my style is more–I like to collaborate with people. I like to support the people on the team and we all together sort of create a great experience for the client.

Being an introvert to me and my personality means that I tend to shy away from conflict. I don't feel super comfortable in a situation where I'm expected to sort of take the lead and command people to do things. Melanie Seibert Click To Tweet

On style--I like to collaborate with people. I like to support the people on the team and we all together sort of create a great experience for the client. Melanie Seibert Click To Tweet

Ben: Let’s talk a little bit more about what it’s like being an introvert in your workplace, what you’re finding as challenges and in terms of what do you think of strengths that you have in doing that?

Melanie: Yeah, so as I mentioned, we’re collaborating a lot in my workplace, and sort of my natural bent is to want to sort of go into a hole, and think and do my work alone. I kind of learned that early on in school projects where you realize that you have more control over the output if you just work on it yourself. You don’t have to sort of rely on anyone else, but that obviously doesn’t work when you’re working on a team and you’re working across disciplines to try to create something. So I’ve learned over time that collaboration, while it’s not sort of my natural mode, is definitely more than worth the sort of effort that it takes me to kind of get out of my comfort zone, because the outputs–the products that we make–are so much better when I’m collaborating with other people. People just bring perspectives–that it doesn’t matter really how long you spent thinking about something yourself. When you get in a room with more than one person and you’re all focused on the same thing, you can get perspectives that you wouldn’t have access to otherwise. So it’s–it’s really been actually helpful for me to grow and kind of learn the value of collaboration.

We're collaborating a lot in my workplace, and sort of my natural bent as an introvert is to want to sort of go into a hole, and think and do my work alone. Melanie Seibert Click To Tweet

I've learned over time that collaboration, while it's not sort of my natural mode, is definitely more than worth the sort of effort that it takes me to get out of my comfort zone, because the outputs are so much better. Melanie… Click To Tweet

When you get in a room with more than one person and you're all focused on the same thing, you can get perspectives that you wouldn't have access to otherwise. Melanie Seibert Click To Tweet

Melanie:  I’ve also had issues in previous–I’ve been in settings before where being an introvert was difficult because the organization didn’t understand or value introverts as leaders as much. They definitely had a view of leadership as a command-and-control type of leadership. And so in that type of environment, an introvert could be seen as ineffective. And so in that past job, I really didn’t have an opportunity to grow because I wasn’t considered to be sort of leader material. So it took a while over time to sort of learn that I have strengths in other areas than commanding. I have strengths in collaboration. Sort of positivity is a strength that I usually bring to the team. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the Gallup Strengths Finder, but it’s another type of personality inventory where they sort of list–there are 34 strengths and you have a top ten and a top five. And so the idea is that everyone sort of has their own unique mix of strengths and it’s not that there’s one combination that a leader must have. You can be any combination of strengths and be a leader or be a valuable team member. So it’s taken me some time to figure that out, but I’ve definitely learned that over the years.

I've been in settings before where being an introvert was difficult because the organization didn't understand or value introverts as leaders as much. Melanie Seibert Click To Tweet

They had a view of leadership as a command-and-control type of leadership. In that environment, an introvert could be seen as ineffective. Melanie Seibert Click To Tweet

Ben: You talked about how in your workplace–that you’re in an environment where you’re expected to collaborate with everyone. In some of my discussions with other guests, one of the big challenges for them has been being in meetings–I guess or collaborative sessions, where as introverts we are so used to processing internally and in many ways finishing our processing and coming up with a well-rounded or well-defined response. How does that work for you? And when you say that you’re–is everybody around a table? Is everybody in a room? How does this actually work?

Melanie: Yeah, there are different types of workshops or activities that we do together, but I will say that typically people are around the table. We have whiteboards, and I think what helps is giving people space and time within the meeting to sort of think. We’ve done activities where there’s a prompt and you’re given two minutes–or five minutes–to think and write something down and then everyone comes back and shares their ideas. Those types of things for me are really great because I don’t feel like I have to sort of jump in, and if everybody’s writing something down then you kind of go around the room and give everyone a chance. So it’s not just the most outspoken people who are contributing. Everybody’s expected to contribute and it just kind of sets up that dynamic so that you don’t–it helps to mitigate that, because I don’t think–I think that’s a common problem. I definitely have that problem. I don’t like to interrupt people. I don’t like to sort of speak up and raise my hand if there’s a momentum to the conversation. So I always assumed that there are other people in the room like me. I think that having an activity that’s crafted with that in mind is pretty helpful. Another thing that I like is to sort of think about it ahead of time. So if you can provide people with the material or whatever it is you’re going to be discussing prior to the meeting, I always like to take that away and look at it ahead of the meeting because I’m the same way. I take time to process and think about things. I’m not as good on my sheet. So that really helps.

Ben: It’s interesting timing wise, because the podcast, I’m currently working on editing with Helen Harbord, I met at TCUK in England early this last fall, and the discussion we were having around meeting behavior got into there are really two types of indiv–I’m sure there are more than two types.–that we talked about two types of people in meetings. You have people like us who are very much waiting for an opportunity to speak, waiting for the other person to stop. But then you have other people who will speak until they’re actually interrupted. So, and don’t assume–and they don’t necessarily assume that anyone else has anything to say unless they actually jump in and interrupt. So we were kind of laughing about that dynamic and how difficult that could be in any kind of workplace setting where you’ve..So you have the A types who do this and the B types who do that. So it’s just funny because some of the themes that we have are recurring. They’re just very common challenges for us as introverts.

Ben: So you had mentioned–we do a pre-podcast questionnaire that we–that I send to our guests so that we’ve got a little bit of a framework about what we’re going to talk about. One of the things that you mentioned on there is that you have, I believe it’s online courses that you’ve developed. Could you talk a little bit about that?

Melanie: Yeah. I got into developing online classes after I learned about General Assembly. And I was working in Austin, Texas at the time and General Assembly was new. If you don’t know what General Assembly is, it’s a company that offers classes to help people. I would say mainly career switching type of folks who want to get into tech or UX or design. It offers classes and I was interested to see whether they had anything on content strategy, because I just think content strategy is like so fascinating and I just wanted to share it with people. And I also feel like it’s a really great career option for people who are in marketing or copywriting or tech writing who sort of find themselves asking a lot of the questions about why we’re doing what we’re doing. So I contacted them and they let me do sort of a two hour Intro to Content Strategy, and I posted about this on my social media and my friends from other cities kept emailing me and saying this is really cool. Is it online anywhere? And at the time they didn’t have online courses and I said, “Well no, but I’m sure if you go online and Google you can probably find something similar.” But when I went online I really had a hard time–at the time this was probably two years ago–finding online courses on content strategy. So I just took that course and took that feedback and made it an online course. So today I have two courses. One’s free and if you go to my website you can sign up for it. It’s just a series of seven emails that come to your inbox and it’s seven discrete lessons and things that you can start doing right away to sort of dip your toe into content strategy and see what it’s like, and if that’s the kind of thing that interests you. And then I also have for people who want to keep going and learn more. I do have a paid course and they’re both listed there on my website.

Ben: I will take a look at that. Like I had mentioned I found out I was a content strategist because the term was relatively new in the industry, and I’m interested in seeing what I can find out from the course, but I do recommend it to our listeners.

Ben: Well, Melanie has been great having our conversation today. I appreciate your time!

Melanie: Yeah, thank you!

Extras

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Roxy Greninger

Episode 017: Roxy Greninger–A Life Lived for Others

Category:introversion,introverts,personality,Podcast

Episode 017 Show Notes: Roxy Greninger

Introduction

Roxy Greninger

Roxy Greninger and Ben Woelk discuss living a life focused on others, the impact of childhood experiences, and finally–the impetus for the Hope for the Introvert podcast.

Key concepts

  • Influencers
  • Growing up and your circle
  • Community
  • Being exposed to diverse people
  • Growing up as an introvert
  • Why the Hope for the Introvert podcast

Quotable

This is part of where I got the idea for Grow Your Circle because I started looking back, getting back to basics, looking back to my roots and thinking of these influencers, these experiences that had cast such a bright light on my life.

I was like your opposite of Dennis the Menace, but I was in my neighbor’s houses, hanging out with these adult neighbors. And the same thing, you know, with the ladies of the shop.

Being exposed to people with visible disabilities at a very young age, which was very important to me to do for my son as he was growing up, because I think if you grow up without having diverse people that look and sound differently than you, it’s scary, right?

I think I’ve always chatted with strangers and had a comfort level. And I think it was because my family brought me out into the world to see different people and not feared difference, um, but embrace it and actually, like I–I crave it, right? Like I need–I need to challenge myself. I need to experience new people, new thoughts, new things or I just feel, I don’t know. It doesn’t feel right.

You see things that I don’t think many of us see. We may see the person who’s acting oddly for whatever reason and see that as somebody we’re uncomfortable with and we want to move away from. In some ways you move towards those people to see what they need, rather than shying away from them.

It’s kind of fascinating how you need the time and the quiet and the space, or the books even, to recharge. But you’re still able to go out and be very very social. So you’ve definitely built on that skill.

Resources or Products Mentioned in this Episode

Links

Transcript

Ben [reprise]: And I think this idea of being the brightest part of someone’s day is, it’s pretty amazing and it’s, you know, pretty humbling when you’re able to do that as well. So I think it’s a very, very cool thing. I’m always struck when I’m talking with you about how intentional you are about these various things that you’re involved in. Now I’m going to repeat that because I did have music noise come in, so I’m always struck when I talked to you about how intentional you are in the way you approach things. We were talking briefly last week even in terms of ensuring that you’re exposing yourself to musical genres that you don’t really prefer, but you want to understand why other, why they’re popular and why certain songs that people appreciate them and I just find it really interesting because you have this intentionality that I don’t honestly believe that most of us do. I think many of us kind of go through our day and we look back on our day and while you know it was another day, but the idea of really not. It’s not. You’re not talking about being the bright spot of one person’s Day. You’re talking about being the bright spot of each person that you encounter during the day and it’s such a different credo in a sense of a way to live. Then I think it’s a very positive, obviously a positive example for us.

Roxy: That’s a good question. I don’t even. I don’t know. So Oregon raised, right? I know that I had a diverse group of friends, I don’t remember them being friends with each other, which was always kind of a burden, right? Like you want to have a birthday party, but none of your friends know each other or get along with each other. And also I think–I think I spent a lot of time with adults as a child. I had the fortune of being raised in an art shop, if you will. My grandmother had a ceramics shop, ceramics and porcelain dolls and it wasn’t limited to ceramics and porcelain dolls. So she taught in that shop. And this is part of where I got the idea for Grow Your Circle because I started looking back, getting back to basics, looking back to my roots and thinking of these influencers, these experiences that had cast such a bright light on my life.

Roxy: So thinking of the women that came into that shop and they had such a–such a sense of community. They would come in. They would–they had a kind of unspoken seating arrangement where they would set up–and I would just run around that shop. I mean, I was in that shop from the time you could keep the paintbrush out of my mouth until we moved to New York–my mom and I moved to New York. So, they were like family, these just hundreds of women in the community. And anytime my grandmother needed something, anytime my mom needed something, there was–there was always–you always knew someone. There was always someone who had something that–they could help or an uncle or a somebody. Right? So, we had a lot of fun there.

Roxy: And then also thinking of my neighborhood. I had one neighbor who was an avid bicyclist and when I bought my first road bicycle–not, not my Huffy with the tassels–he went to a garage sale with me.  I was a teenager and I remember he came with my mom and I to help look it over and make sure that it was a good investment, right? I was using my first wages when I was like 13 years old or something. And the neighbor across the street was a florist and I remember I would just go up and chat with these neighbors, because I had that comfort level with speaking to strange–I don’t want to say to strangers, but to strangers that I knew were within the circle, right?

Roxy: They were in the shop where they were neighbors. And I remember being invited into her house and she had let me help her do her florist arrangements. She taught me how to make peanut butter and jelly. I had another neighbor who was a teacher and you’ll–you’ll appreciate this. You’re a professor. So, she was a second grade teacher, or excuse me, she was a fifth grade teacher and I was in second grade, and she gave me the answer key and let me grade her students math work, right? And so I just–I was like your opposite of Dennis the Menace, but I was in my neighbor’s houses, hanging out with these adult neighbors. And the same thing, you know, with the ladies of the shop.

Roxy: My grandmother would also take me to the nursing home. She volunteered avidly in the community and one of the things that she did was to go to the nursing home, although I think she might’ve been paid for that–that wasn’t a volunteer opportunity, but I was volunteering. I wasn’t paid. And I know there was one day out of the month that the disability–the folks with disabilities would come in a van. And I think that one she did for free as a generosity to the community. But I remember being exposed to people with visible disabilities at a very young age, which was very important to me to do for my son as he was growing up, because I think if you grow up without having diverse people that look and sound differently than you, it’s scary, right?

I think if you grow up without having diverse people that look and sound differently than you, it's scary, right? Roxy Click To Tweet

Roxy: So when you’re exposed to someone who’s in a wheelchair and doesn’t have control of their speech or might have, for lack of a better term, like they’re drooling or these things, you might not even look at them or notice them. So it was very important for me to have my son volunteer with me when I moved to New York. So you get to the answer–that was a roundabout way. Just trying to navigate through my childhood. I think I’ve always chatted with strangers and had a comfort level. And I think it was because my family brought me out into the world to see different people and not feared difference, um, but embrace it and actually, like I–I crave it, right? Like I need–I need to challenge myself. I need to experience new people, new thoughts, new things or I just feel, I don’t know. It doesn’t feel right.

I need to challenge myself. I need to experience new people, new thoughts, new things , or it just doesn't feel right. Roxy Click To Tweet

Ben: It’s interesting. I wrote a blog post a few months ago about saying, “Yes and?” to Leadership Opportunities. But one of the things that I’ve found when I was researching the blog posts was a quote by Albert Einstein in which he says “Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile.” And I think listening to you and talking about your ability to talk to–I will say adults rather than strangers I think. But your ability to interact with adults and really be a servant leader in many ways and be of service to others, I think as you know, is what we’re seeing with this. And it just seems to be such a part of your DNA at this point that you see–you see things probably through your upbringing. You see things that I don’t think many of us see. We may see the person who’s acting oddly for whatever reason and see that as somebody we’re uncomfortable with and we want to move away from. In some ways you move towards those people to see what they need, rather than shying away from them.

Albert Einstein--Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile. Click To Tweet

Roxy: I agree wholeheartedly. I just thought of another example that sounds like you might say that it’s unique and me, but if it’s something that someone doesn’t find that they have, it’s a skill to hone. Right? So there was a program back home and it was called the Pitchford boys, and it’s no longer in place, which is unfortunate, but it was kind of like a second chance.The Pitchford program was for boys who might have gotten in trouble–juvenile trouble from anything from theft to violence to–you name it, right? And they were under 18 so they couldn’t go to jail.

Roxy: So they would send them to this ranch that was down the road from my house, and they would serve time on the ranch doing farm work, and I’m working with the agriculture there and when they’d proven that they could show respect and be trusted–It was a privilege to go to school–then they would be assimilated into the school system. When they rode the bus with me–I lived kind of out in the middle of nowhere. I’m already in the middle of nowhere! And I got to know them and there were just always new kids in the program and you could either be afraid of them and sit at the front of the bus and don’t talk to them. And you know, they can be crass, right? Can say things that are rude. But if you jump right in and you get to know them and ask them questions, you really get to understand why they behave the way that they do. And you know what unfortunate circumstances led to their being there. It was such a great relationship to have like that. I’d have year after year with many of them. I think there was only one of them that ever truly didn’t belong there. And he was the only one that ever scared all of us. [Laughing] And he was very short–for a short time on the bus.

Roxy: But, I think that anyone–I work very closely with our Center for Youth which serves the homeless children’s population. And a lot of people in Rochester don’t even realize how many homeless children there are. They look around and say “Where, where are these homeless children?” And they’re there. You don’t have to look very hard to see them. Or, when you see a family that’s suffering or see a family that talks or acts differently than you, and then they have a hardship, are you quick to dismiss them because they didn’t have the same things you had and the same advantages that you had? It’s definitely a skill that I think people should invest a little time in if they don’t feel that they have it. It’s–it’s just humankind. It was just being kind and considerate of–Don’t, don’t fear a homeless person. I don’t hand dollars to homeless people. I invest my money in legitimate programs. But, don’t be afraid of them! I think that’s another–another conversation. What media has done to make us afraid of the homeless population and assuming that they all have mental health and they’re all going to attack you on the street. But that’s a different–that’s a different soapbox conversation. [Laughing]

Ben: Yeah, we’ll do that on another segment at some point in time. [Roxy laughing.] So one thing that’s funny about this, is that you’ve identified as an introvert, but we also talked about how you were a sociable introvert, and when you were growing up you were in a lot of conversations with people that say a classic–if there is such a thing–introvert would have found very difficult to even engage in. So it’s, it’s, it’s kind of fascinating how you need the time and the quiet and the space, or the books even, to recharge. But you’re still able to go out and be very very social. So you’ve definitely built on that skill.

You need the time and the quiet and the space, or the books even, to recharge. But you're still able to go out and be very very social. So you've definitely built on that skill. Click To Tweet

Roxy: I’ll tell you what I missed as a child was hours and hours and hours of quiet play. I loved building houses for my dolls. My mom did some design work and I always had access to supplies, right? So I was always building houses out of U-Haul boxes and carpet swatches and things like that. And I noticed right away when my son was growing up–he’s an extrovert–and I noticed such a difference in–not behavior, but just he as a very small child needed to be in the same room with us. He did not ever want to play by himself in his room. And I thought it was so strange, I didn’t force it, but I thought it was so strange, that he wouldn’t just play, and I could get him playing and then if I left the room, it wasn’t very long before he would come find me and bring his toys out to the space where I was.

Roxy: And that continued on and, you know, even to now, like he will–if he’s in his room, it’s because he’s on social media with his friends. He’s FaceTiming or Snapchatting with friends or he immediately wants to run out and hang out with friends. And not just because he’s a teenager, but because that’s just innately who he is. But yeah, hours of quiet time for me. I would play in the backyard by myself. Sing songs, choreograph dances all by myself, right? So I saw it at a very early age that I didn’t know I needed it until you start working and you start–I don’t want to say being robbed of your time–but your time becomes less of your own when you’re an adult.

Ben: No, absolutely. And I’m looking back at my childhood, and we won’t go into any depth on it, but I also grew up in kind of the end of the bus stop, and a quarter mile into the orange grove to get to the farmhouse I grew up in. And we didn’t have close neighbors and I was an–I did have a sister a couple of years younger–but we’re both introverts, and we could amuse ourselves for hours doing whatever.

Ben: Ironically, one story that goes with that: The house I grew up in has actually become a museum at this point in time because it’s one of the few surviving examples of what they called Florida Vernacular Architecture. It was built in the late 1800s, and I didn’t realize it had happened, but they did some archaeological digs up near the house. And one of the things they actually dug up was plastic Flintstones dinosaur bones that my sister and I had apparently buried in the hope that some archaeologists at some point in time would dig things up and find it. So it was this ability to be amused–I’m not sure what that says [laughing], but this ability to have that kind of play and whether individually or with just the two of us that I find really interesting, and there’s always a debate about whether it’s nature or nurture in terms of introversion or what that combination might be.

Ben: One thing that I referenced earlier in our conversation was that you were really the catalyst for starting the Hope for the Introvert podcasts. And I kind of wanted to revisit that. It’s pretty recent. It’s only a few months ago where this came up. But what were your thoughts around why you thought there should be a podcast like this? It’s not like it’s the only introvert podcast out there.

Roxy: Yeah, I–it totally draws from my current influences. So within my circle I follow a variety of YouTubers and motivational speakers if you’ll call them that. Celebrity types. And they’re constantly talking about their evolution into how they became who they are. And it’s fascinating to me to see the progress that they’ve made. And when you were talking about your blog and talking about your work, it just, it just fit, right? I just made the connection between what I see them doing, and you’re at the beginning phases of where they were and where they’ve gone to. I can–I can almost see your path right when you were talking to me. And also, maximizing your audience. Not everybody reads blogs, believe it or not, right? So, myself, I–I read. I don’t know if I read blogs. I read books, but I’m more so try to maximize how I’m getting input, and that comes by way of podcasts, that comes by way of audio book. Although I found it to be dangerous reading audio books on the Thruway because I also like to take notes, and so I end up pausing the audio book more–more times than not because I can’t take notes. But yeah. it just–it just seemed like a natural fit to suggest podcast foryou because the influences that are around me now are doing it, right? So if you had the same influences that I did absent me, you–you would have had a natural progression into a podcast, I feel as–as well without me.

Ben: As we’ve usually found in our conversations, Roxy and I have covered a good deal of ground here and uncovered subjects that we didn’t really plan to talk about at all, but which I hope have been of interest to you as listeners and now you have a little bit about–a little bit of the background about why I’m doing a podcast. So, if you’re enjoying this, you can thank Roxy for her influence on this and her urging me to do it. So again, Roxy, I’d like to thank you again for joining us today.

Roxy: Thank you so much for having me, Ben. It’s such a privilege and an honor to be part of your podcast and I hope to join you again.

Ben: Awesome. I think that’s definite.

Extras

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Roxy Greninger

Episode 016: Roxy Greninger–Culture Consultant and Brightest Part

Category:introversion,Introverted Leadership,introverts,Leadchange,Leadership,Podcast

Episode 016 Show Notes: Roxy Greninger

Introduction

Roxy Greninger

Roxy Greninger and Ben Woelk discuss Roxy’s role as a culture consultant and being the brightest part of someone’s day.

Key concepts

  • Changing a business culture
  • Re-engineering content
  • StrengthsFinder
  • Being intentional
  • Being the brightest spot of someone’s day

Quotable

You need to be intentional as an organization to drive your culture. Our purpose of our culture team is to help attract and retain the best and the brightest talent.

“We pass these things on.” And I said, that’s exactly what happens in–in culture, in general. We pass these rules or these norms on to each other because we teach each other. And that’s exactly what happens in an organization.

Our company has laid out values and behaviors that aren’t just words on a wall. They’re not–it’s not a poster in the break room, right? These are things that we live and breathe every day

My “why,” my vision and all that makes me happy–is being the brightest part of someone’s day. And I know that sounds corny, but like–and it’s not a difficult goal to reach–but at the end of the day, if I can look backwards and say I made someone smile today, or I brought some relief to someone, or I helped someone, or, you know “fill in the blank,” that I help influence or positively impact that person in some small way, then I’ve fulfilled my day.

I feel like it’s very important for us to recognize those strengths and leverage them, whether it be for your work or your fulfillment. If you’re missing one of them, you’ll notice it. You’ll not feel that you have that connection or that purpose.

Resources or Products Mentioned in this Episode

Links

Transcript

Ben: Joining us today is Roxy Greninger. Roxy Works for Excellus Blue Cross Blue Shield as a Culture Program Consultant. Roxy describes herself as Texas-born, Oregon-raised, and New York-refined.

Ben: Hi Roxy. I’m so excited you’re joining us today. We’ve had some fascinating and far ranging conversations and I look forward to seeing where we go today.

Ben: So you are a culture program consultant, which sounds like a totally exotic and intriguing role to have in a company. I suspect it’s not quite as exotic as it sounds. Could you tell us a little bit about the cultural program?

Roxy: Sure. There’s a few of us and what’s unique about the three of us with that title is that we are all tasked with varying things–varying projects and various work–which is just great, right? And anytime you have multiple people doing the same role, you should always look to leverage their strengths. And that’s just what our leader has done, but the culture program consultant by design–I think more organizations are finding themselves with some sort of a culture team or culture leader, someone who’s focus is on the culture, and it’s because you need to be intentional as an organization to drive your culture. Our purpose of our culture team is to help attract and retain the best and the brightest talent.

You need to be intentional as an organization to drive your culture. Our purpose of our culture team is to help attract and retain the best and the brightest talent. Roxy Click To Tweet

Roxy: And it’s not just about attracting the talent, because once you get them in the door, they need to stay there. So that’s the retain part, right? So we see a lot of flashy companies, really big companies writing books and kind of paving the industry and they do fun things and you see Ping Pong tournaments, and water slides, and all these really wacky things. And so people think that it’s just a lot of fun and it’s a lot of frivolity–I guess if that’s even a word–frivolousness, and that’s not what it is. It’s really about helping develop people and know themselves and reach the fullest potential. Developing the strategy for the organization, working with the leaders, right, to make sure that they’re setting the example for the rest of the organization and demonstrating the values and behaviors that the organization desires. Right? So for our company, we have a mission, we have a vision just like every other company and we have a strategy to achieve that mission.

Roxy: And one of our strategies is to motivate the workforce. And that’s–that’s my job all day, right, is what needs to be done to motivate the workforce. There’s part of it is a little dance around psychology. It’s important that people feel that they have some control, that they have decision making, and that they’re heard. So our company has laid out values and behaviors that aren’t just words on a wall. They’re not–it’s not a poster in the break room, right? These are things that we live and breathe every day and our culture has changed a lot in the 13 years I’ve been with the organization. It’s really evolved in a positive way. Thirteen years ago I probably honestly only stuck around because the benefits were good, right? Then as the focus, the intention on culture has come full circle, we’ve heard more improvements. People are happier. They’re showing up to work with better ideas. They can be more innovative.

On culture--Company values and behaviors that aren't just words on a wall. They're not a poster in the break room, right? These are things that we live and breathe every day. Roxy Click To Tweet

Roxy: We have a huge focus now on diversity. That’s another department. We work closely with them. But that’s another major piece of it, is every voice needs to be heard–diversity of thought, diversity of your experiences. We all have unique experiences and we have to recognize that. So there’s a whole team that is focused on diversity of our employees and the diversity of thought, so that we can innovate. And yeah, it is–I think of it–it is kind of an exotic title, but it’s very much project management and learning and development, I think that I bring to the team, I do a lot of readings. I love to re-engineer content. Of course, I credit and cite the source, but I like to re-engineer it in a way that the average person can receive it, and they don’t have to spend as much time reading all the books or watching all the videos, which is something that I enjoy doing. So it’s a happy balance.

I love to re-engineer content. Of course, I credit and cite the source, but I like to re-engineer it in a way that the average person can receive it, Roxy Click To Tweet

Ben: And I, and I may or may not be right about this at all, but is the pace of change? You said it had changed a lot in the 13 years. And I’d also mentioned that sounds like an exotic position, but it sounds like–it takes a lot of time for change, usually. Correct?

Roxy: Oh, absolutely! It’s not something you can be impatient about and… I just did a workshop for our college interns over the summer and the way that I explained it is–culture is contagious, so you don’t just wake up one day and decide you’re going to change your culture. And the story that I told them or the, the, the challenge that I asked them during the workshop was I, I had a lab coat on and I, you know, had some colored waters in some beakers and made it look more like a science room. But I asked them, does anyone know why? First of all I did like a poll–Does everyone know that you don’t wear white after Labor Day? And they all at least had heard of it. So that was good. And then I said, does anyone know why you don’t wear white after Labor Day?

Roxy: And nobody knew. And that was kind of surprising because, you know, with the different videos and things that pop up on Facebook, we all kind of know these, these fun little trivia these days. So fortunately for me, no one knew the answer, so I said, “Well, it actually started after the Civil War, when there was all these self-made millionaires popping up everywhere, and the high society ladies of old money decided that they wanted a way to identify the new money so that they could shun them.” And so the story goes that they came up with these fashion rules so that they could spot the new money and shun them. So basically one of the rules was you don’t wear white after Labor Day and they came up with that rule because it’s just normal to wear white in the summer.

Roxy: It’s a lighter color, but they made it a rule. So if you wore a white gown to a Christmas ball or gala, they would snub you. They would shun you. And so I said, “That was almost a 100 or over 100 years ago. How is it that something that was so malicious in nature that was created back then, still a thing now that we embrace and teach our children? And the hands started going up and you know, people were like, oh, because I said, “Who told you?” And they said, my grandmother and my mother, my whoever. And I said, “We pass these things on.” And I said, that’s exactly what happens in–in culture, in general. We pass these rules or these norms on to each other because we teach each other. And that’s exactly what happens in an organization.

We pass these things on. That's exactly what happens in culture, We pass these rules or these norms on to each other because we teach each other. And that's exactly what happens in an organization. Roxy Click To Tweet

Roxy: So when you think you’re helping someone by saying, “Oh, you have to wear–Ladies, you have to wear nylons in our organization.” Well, no! There’s actually no corporate policy that says you have to wear nylons. But this is one of those things that in some areas, the employees here were under the impression that they had to wear nylons with a skirt. And it’s just funny because you have these little pockets where people believe, well, that’s what you have to do. Well, who gets to decide what you have to do? Is it a corporate policy or is it a “that’s what we’ve kind of been doing for awhile?” So yeah, we really just asked the question, “Who gets to decide? Fill in the blank and challenge those norms. So, it could be as little as meeting culture, Do you put an agenda on your meeting invite? It could be different depending on which team you work in and what leader you have or what coworkers you have. So these things don’t change easily. I can’t just wake up one day and say, “Hey organization.  We’re all gonna do this.” Sometimes we can. Sometimes things are mandated and we have to do them. But the way that we behave and treat each other and some of these things that we’ve accepted into our norms, are much more difficult to challenge.

Ben: So how would you go about measuring success? How do you? I mean, we’re talking about–some things are overnight things because they’re mandated, but many of these things seem to take a good amount of time. And what do you do trying to determine if your efforts are successful?

Roxy: Yeah! The organization has a survey. We use a vendor that helps us measure, using a survey assessment–measure the feedback from the employees. And we asked the same questions year after year and we gauged the responses. So for that, it’s a numbers answer. Personally, I like to read between the lines and really understand the feedback that’s going along with those numbers, because it’s not about the numbers. It’s about the people, right? So we have the number that’s helpful. But for me it’s–it’s how do I feel? Right? And it’s really hard to get a measure on how do I feel. There could be something going on. If I come to work and I’m working through a frustration with a particular work group, depending on who I come in contact with. It varies from person to person and rightly so. It should.

Roxy: So, yes, the organization does use the assessment, but for me personally in my role, I like to observe and I like to listen and I like to just pay attention, which again, I think is one of those things where introverts just excel at because I can be the one in the room leading the conversation and jumping in and giving feedback, but I can also very easily be the person in the room who’s sitting back and watching the body language and reading between the lines and listening to somebody give an idea and then shut down because maybe their idea was rejected and they didn’t feel that they wanted to really press that idea or share the backup context that would help others see their idea. So, I’m kind of more of the observer and I’m weaving in the development pieces that go along with that.

Ben: Well, that’s awesome. So you mentioned that your strength of being able to listen and I think observe–I mean that is one of the strengths of introverts in general are supposed to be, and clearly, talking about how you’re leveraging that in terms of the culture change work. What else do you believe to be your biggest strengths? So how are you leveraging the StrengthsFinders?

Roxy: I think when I first found out what they were, it was a kind of disbelief. I didn’t quite understand what they were. And then over time, as somebody gave me a little plaque and they were sitting on my shelf, I’m at my desk and over time, as I would see them on a daily basis, and I would look back to what the definitions were, I started to realize that I had tendencies that explained why those were my strengths. So the F and I think by order, the first strength is Strategic. For me, when I come up with ideas or when I give answers to solve problems, it’s not always a fix for today. It’s a longer term fix or it’s something where I’m thinking I’m trying to pull in all the information that I have to make the smartest decision or the decision that’s gonna enter you no longer test of time.

Roxy: For me, the strategic definitely shows up, and sometimes I have to warn people, “Just FYI, I’m strategic. Sorry, if I’m jumping ahead.” And then also Learner and Input are two of my strengths. I’m so Learner. You’ve probably heard me talking about how I love to read. I average a book a week, and I just can’t get enough, right? I love learning new things. I find myself putting myself in awkward, uncomfortable, new positions in order to learn new things. And the Input, I just want to gather as much input as I can about something. And that’s part of the Strategic, a strength, the need there to fill all the input in order to make those decisions, But it’s also part of the Maximizer. So that’s another strength, once I learn all this content and I pull in all this input, I want to be able to maximize it.

I love learning new things. I find myself putting myself in awkward, uncomfortable, new positions in order to learn new things. Roxy Click To Tweet

Roxy: I want to be able to tell everyone about it and help them connect with it. And I just gave away the fifth strength which is Connectedness. And so I do–I see connection in everything and value in everything. And when I have that connection and that value in everything, it’s inspiring, it’s motivating, it’s uplifting. So I try to see the connection or value in every interaction and something–I actually just started this week. A few weeks ago I had recommended to someone I was talking to, to start a gratitude journal, and that’s a popular thing. A lot of people are doing it. I tried it myself and it just–the well kept running dry, right? And it sounds horrible, but it was more of a, at the end of the day make sure you do your gratitude. And I was like, “Oh, I’m thankful for my family.” It was kind of growing repetitive, but this person had a specific need and she was feeling really down, and I said, “Hey, have you tried this?”

Roxy: And so I was thinking about it and I was thinking back to me, back to my “why,” my vision and all that makes me happy–is being the brightest part of someone’s day. And I know that sounds corny, but like–and it’s not a difficult goal to reach–but at the end of the day, if I can look backwards and say I made someone smile today, or I brought some relief to someone, or I helped someone, or, you know “fill in the blank,” that I help influence or positively impact that person in some small way, then I’ve fulfilled my day. Like that’s it, right? So I shifted the journal from Gratitude to “That’s my Purpose.” And if I–and any goal–this is my recommendation to anyone. If you have a goal or something you’re trying to accomplish, if you can dedicate that much time every day towards that goal, you will reach that goal.

My vision and all that makes me happy--is being the brightest part of someone's day. Roxy Click To Tweet

At the end of the day, if I can look backwards and say I made someone smile today, or I brought some relief to someone, that I help influence or positively impact that person in some small way, then I've fulfilled my day. Roxy Click To Tweet

Roxy: And so for me it was, it was just a happy reminder of if you look backwards on your day. You’re going to see that you’re naturally helping. You’re naturally doing these things, bringing some sort of positive light into–anyone, whether it’s personal, family, work, anything–it could be the cashier at the register for all I know, if I just smile and say, Have a good day.” And they perk up. That’s–that’s awesome for me. As I started doing that journal and I found while journaling, the strengths were shining through in those examples again, and I was like, “Whoa! There it is again–those, those strengths.” That connection, finding myself at a place for a reason.

Roxy: Maybe I went to the estate sale and didn’t buy anything. And someone might look at that and say, “Oh, what a waste of time. You went there, you spent the money on the gas, and you didn’t buy anything.” Well, I like to look at the actual connection I had. Someone there was moving a table and nobody was helping her. So I offered to help and she said, “I’m 75 years old. I don’t know what I was thinking by trying to carry this table.” And that was it. That was that little interaction. We put the table in her car and she left, and I heard her telling someone on her way out that, “Oh, that nice young lady. They’re at the end of the line, helped me with the table.” Of course, I don’t know why no one else helped her, but that was it. Like I was meant to be there for that purpose and that was the brightest part of my day. But, I feel like it’s very important for us to recognize those strengths and leverage them, whether it be for your work or your fulfillment. If you’re missing one of them, you’ll notice it. You’ll not feel that you have that connection or that purpose.

It's very important for us to recognize your strengths and leverage them, be it for your work or your fulfillment. If you're missing one of them, you'll notice. You'll not feel that you have that connection or that purpose. Roxy Click To Tweet

Ben: What’s interesting is that you talked about “at the end of the day.” My thoughts immediately leapt to the song in Les Miserables, which talks about “At the end of the day, you’re another day older,” but it’s  almost all negative. It’s like there’s nothing. It’s just kinda the end of the day. It talks about “one day less to be living.” It’s not a positive song. But to hear you talking about this, it’s such a different and refreshing way to approach life in terms of you go to an event, you go to something that says an estate sale. You didn’t see anything you wanted to buy, but you found a way to have an impact on someone’s life. And I think that you have a gift there that many of us–it just doesn’t necessarily even occur to us. And “Oh, I went to the sale, I didn’t find anything and somebody was struggling with a table, and I should have helped them with the table” sort of thing, instead of jumping up there and making a difference for someone.

Ben: And I think this idea of being the brightest part of someone’s day is–it’s pretty amazing and it’s pretty humbling when you’re able to do that as well. So I think it’s a very, very cool thing. I’m always struck when I talk with you about how intentional you are in the way you approach these various things. We were talking briefly last week even in terms of ensuring that you’re exposing yourself to musical genres that you don’t really prefer, but you want to understand why other–why they’re popular and why certain songs that people appreciate them and I just find it really interesting because you have this intentionality that I don’t honestly believe that most of us do. I think many of us kind of go through our day and we look back on our day and well, it was another day, but the idea of really not–it’s not–you’re not talking about being the bright spot of one person’s day. You’re talking about being the bright spot of each person that you encounter during the day and it’s such a different credo in a sense of a way to live. Then I think it’s a very positive, obviously a positive example for us.

Extras

Organizational culture is a big deal and can have a direct impact on innovation. I read Daniel Coyle, The Culture Code: the Secrets of Highly Successful Groups earlier this year as part of the Next Big Idea Book Club (10% off subscription). I highly recommend both! Ben


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